Ulysses

General => Off-Topic => Topic started by: MrPresident on May 20, 2013, 12:05:22 PM

Title: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on May 20, 2013, 12:05:22 PM
Garry's Mod handles players in two different ways:

groups - This is a behind the scenes, player tracking system for the purpose of assigning rights within the game and some addons/gamemodes.

teams - This is how players are displayed to other players. (IE: On the scoreboard, or when hovering over a player in some gamemodes)

---------------------------

By default Garry's Mod only has 3 groups. Those groups are superadmin, admin, and user.
According to Garry's Mod a superadmin is on the top. There is not much someone with the superadmin group can not do. Players with the admin group have a little less privilege but are still considered administrators by garrysmod standards.

Without any kind of scoreboard or group to team modification, there is no way you would know what player was in what groups.

UTeam (which is shipped stock with ULX now) takes players in groups and assigns them into teams. Some gamemodes handle their own teams. The TEAM is what displays to other players and this is how they know who you are and what group you are in.

----------------------------

Some server owners find it necessary to create a group higher than superadmin for themselves and call it something else, like owner. The only problem with this is that you have now prevented some stock gmod functions from seeing you as the top level admin, even though you are. Also, by nature you will then assign other users to the superadmin group and now they have more power than they probably should have (even if you've restricted it by ULX standards .. superadmin is still the default highest group and most addons and gamemodes will treat it as such)

With the UTeam plugin, you can call any group whatever you wish. A solution to this issue is to simply CALL the superadmin group 'Owner' if you wish. By doing this, you ensure that only the top level admin is receiving the top level group. Calling the admin group 'Administrator' or creating another group and having it inherit admin allows you to have other groups for different levels of administrators without giving them that root superadmin access.

-----------------------------

All of that being said, I die a little on the inside when I see requests for help creating an Owner group and having it inherit the superadmin group because I know that those people are then going to turn around and grant superadmin access to players who probably don't need everything that comes with it.

That's the end of my rant. If anyone has any questions regarding this topic, feel free to ask.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Megiddo on May 20, 2013, 12:41:15 PM
I agree with you completely.

One technical comment though, if someone creates a group called "owner" and make it inherit from "superadmin", ply:IsSuperAdmin() will return true for that player in the "owner" group (ULX modifies the IsAdmin() and IsSuperAdmin() functions to do this). I still find it odd that people would want to create a group higher than "superadmin" which is supposed to be equivalent to the Linux "root" (I've never heard of Linux users wanting an account higher than "root" before).
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on May 20, 2013, 04:34:35 PM
That's just it. 'superadmin' should be their top group. Call it owner with UTeam if you so wish, and that's the point I was trying to make with my post.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: sabo on May 22, 2013, 09:46:26 AM
I personally was not aware of how Garry's Mod handles the groups.

I knew Superadmin is highest by default so I did not try and change it.

However I have some custom commands which shall not be granted to "special"admin (superadmin), they should be granted to the owner only.

When I setup the groups and commands for everyone I started looking for new ways to protect the higher authorities.

If I would have been aware of the things stated in this thread I would have simply renamed superadmin to owner and made the lower ranks inherit from admin/user but not for owner(superadmin).

Well I guess it is too late now because it is a pain in the ass to change it at the moment. I would have to remove all the users/groups - basically restore to 0 (default ULX) and then work the way you suggested in here. After I would be done with making the groups Id still have to add the people back to their groups ... unless I use the same names (just different order/inherit) and backup the user.txt file and just upload it back to the server when I am done with the groups lol - I guess thats too easy to be real :D


tl;dr: If I would have been aware of the things I would have done it the way you said - completely agree with you.

Ill remember this for the future ;)

Well written for a rant btw hahah :D
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on May 22, 2013, 11:55:10 AM
No worries, it was half a rant and half a public service announcement. :P

I figured 9/10 people didn't know this information (based on the number of people who try and create groups higher than superadmin) and figured if I could help some people understand it better, why not. :)
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: sabo on May 22, 2013, 12:49:46 PM
No worries, it was half a rant and half a public service announcement. :P

I figured 9/10 people didn't know this information (based on the number of people who try and create groups higher than superadmin) and figured if I could help some people understand it better, why not. :)

Well you helped me alot kind Sir :)

Kudos to you :D
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on May 22, 2013, 02:02:06 PM
I've been ranting this for years.
Finally, my ravings make sense.
I knew MrP was a twin brother separated at birth...born several years later.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: LuaTenshi on June 20, 2013, 11:34:12 PM
I think this should be a sticky.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Megiddo on June 21, 2013, 08:14:32 PM
I agree, it deserves a sticky and doesn't really belong in any other sub-forum.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: rainbow Dash on August 23, 2013, 10:34:56 PM
Look, being one of those people who feels the need for an owner group, allow me to explain things from my side of the fence.

When you look at the names to groups (Superadmin, admin, user), it leaves a lot to be desired. Theres little room to fit a rank between SA and admin, and what would you call it anyway? semisuperadmin? MegaAdmin? AboveAdminButNotQuiteASuperAdmin? SuperAdminThatCantTargetTheOwner? These are all rediculous names, and so the logical solution would be to create an Owner group, above SuperAdmin. Then you have room for CoOwner, etc etc etc.

Now, naturally yes there will be some pitfalls from this. All things have a downside. It's to be expected.

In this case, other mods that rely on the user group directly rather than IsSuperAdmin() will not target the owner (although any coders that do that should look up Compatibility and Redundancy in the dictionary)...

However, this is ultimately an issue that needs to be addressed in Garry's Mod itself. There should be a rank for Owner, as in a realistic hierarchy, you dont just say "Aight, Im top dog, these guys here all have the same powers, and you lot that are left are just users". No. In a realistic hierarchy, you would have something like an Owner, a Co-Owner (if applicable), A few Head Admins (aka Super Admin), then your regular admins, then your moderators that have only the essentials and nothing that can be abused, then your players.

Thats how a realistic hierarchy works. And garry cant say "That will work for you anyway" because all he has to do is turn around and look at Facepunch. Is facepunch sorted by "Garry, admins, non admins"? No. Its sorted by "Garry, some guys that can almost do garrys job when he cant be bothered, admins, mods, donators, users, banned users, spammers".

So when it comes to it, the 3 standard groups do not cover 99% of realistic server environments. Yes, it works perfectly fine in LAN parties, Listen servers, and other constantly monitored situations, but when you get around to say having a dedicated server, or a large community (HellsGamers, KickAss Servers, GMTower), you need to have a finer control of who is where in a hierarchy.

Granted, ULX does this anyway, but there was a time, and not too long ago too, when having ulx do this for us just wasn't enough.

Take for instance DarkRP's FAdmin. Just a few weeks ago DarkRP was updated to include immunity levels. Without these, you couldn't make an Owner group that could target SuperAdmins. But you needed to make the same group in FAdmin as you did in ULX in order to have any powers in either mod.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look at things straight forward, yes, you do not need an Owner group, but in the real world, with a real hierarchy, you need to be able to take command over your staff, so people know what their place is. Otherwise you could get SuperAdmins challenging the authority of the owner of a server and causing hassles by terrorizing the server and banning the owner.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on August 24, 2013, 01:18:22 PM
(although any coders that do that should look up Compatibility and Redundancy in the dictionary)...
<clip>
Otherwise you could get SuperAdmins challenging the authority of the owner of a server and causing hassles by terrorizing the server and banning the owner.
<clip>

I'm of the opinion you're being daft and don't get it.
Garry made the ability to add as many groups as you want (hence Gmod's IsUserGroup).
SuperAdmin is meant to be top dog, owner, host, whatever. The equivalent of what's been known in multiuser environments as root or superuser.
Any coder that expects a non-standard group they randomly created to be above SuperAdmin, and doesn't think about the thought of standard Gmod mods looking for IsSuperAdmin should be the one to look up compatibility in the dictionary.
By no means are we saying multiple levels beside SuperAdmin and Admin shouldn't exist.
We're just saying don't expect something written in a Gmod standards-compatible way to work when a particular mod makes thier own groups, and then some other mod that gives special access based on isadmin or issuperadmin doesn't recognize it.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: ULXGmodFan on January 06, 2014, 03:35:19 AM
I did not know this.

Also I don't really understand. My Superadmins can't handle or edit private slots for example and only I, the Owner, can. Eventhough i've created an Owner group in the beginning of my server that inhertited rights from Superadmin.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Neku on January 06, 2014, 10:04:39 AM
Coders assume superadmin is top dog.

Superadmin gets server control.

You get screwed over.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on January 06, 2014, 10:58:20 AM
My Superadmins can't handle or edit private slots for example and only I, the Owner, can. Eventhough i've created an Owner group in the beginning of my server that inhertited rights from Superadmin.
This sounds unusual, and if it's bothersome to you, would best be handled in another thread started in Help and Support.
Follow the FAQ for 'having trouble with access', which will help you troubleshoot, and if not corrected, gives instructions for providing us more information.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: ULXGmodFan on January 07, 2014, 04:06:54 AM
This sounds unusual, and if it's bothersome to you, would best be handled in another thread started in Help and Support.
Follow the FAQ for 'having trouble with access', which will help you troubleshoot, and if not corrected, gives instructions for providing us more information.
Oh i'm sorry you must've misunderstand. It's exactly how I configurated it. So I don't really understand why this topic is there and why it would be such an issue. Ranks seem to work fine for me. Also superadmins are only the people I know personally and trust. And so should every server be.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on January 07, 2014, 04:50:36 PM
This thread is here because:

Even though you set up your ULX groups correctly and they are working the way you want them to, if you ever installed a different 3rd party addon that had admin privileges, it MAY give you superadmin access because ULX overwrites how IsSuperAdmin works to include derivative groups, however your superadmins would also have top level access. You would not be able to change this even if you wanted to without editing the lua files of the addon you installed.

My point I was trying to make is that GarrysMod (Not ULX) handles superadmin as THE root group. If you want to be an 'owner' the best way to do that is to relabel superadmin as 'Owner' with UTeam or whatever else handles teams for your gamemode.

If you've had no issues with the way you have yours set up, you should be thankful. You are either very lucky, or have more working knowledge of ULX/LUA than most of the users that come here.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Dartouious on January 12, 2014, 08:55:08 AM
Could i rename the superadmin group and it still have a;; the same permissions and i wouldnt have to change anything in side the server. or would that screw everything. Becasue i would like my owner calss to be called Dictator. With all the permissions
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on January 12, 2014, 10:32:23 AM
Simply put, It would break everything.
Gmod expects and programs for three groups - superadmin, admin, and user.
All other groups are custom, and no 3rd party script is guaranteed to have any idea what they are if not one of those three.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on January 12, 2014, 02:57:41 PM
Basically Dartouious, the point I am trying to make is that in gmod a group is not a team.

You could CALL your superadmin group Dictator using something like UTeam and it would appear as that in the scoreboard while remaining superadmin in the code. As long as you don't rename the GROUP you should be fine.

The problem is when server owners want to have a group higher than superadmin, and then they complain when some things don't work properly.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on January 12, 2014, 04:32:00 PM
And UTeam isn't made for other gamemodes than Sandbox because, well, they have thier own teams which UTeam would break.
Simply put, renaming superadmin or admin group breaks stuff
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: syn. on January 19, 2014, 12:55:31 PM
And UTeam isn't made for other gamemodes than Sandbox because, well, they have thier own teams which UTeam would break.
Simply put, renaming superadmin or admin group breaks stuff
started server, didn't know anything, broke stuff with 3rd party stuff on TTT, deleted everything, started server again, broke even more stuff. story of my server lol:)
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Avoid on March 28, 2014, 11:22:03 AM
Hey there,
I really do have to agree with Mr.President, people should just stop screwing around with ULX groups, because there really is no point in having a group higher than superadmin which is equivalent to root in Linux systems.
Sometimes people join my server and ask who the owner is, as I am "just" a superadmin.  :o

Just my two cents,
Avoid
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on March 28, 2014, 01:03:40 PM
Avoid, just to make sure you're clear, this has nothing to do with just 'ULX' groups.
GMOD expects superadmin to be root.
ULX allows for custom groups, but, no other addon may know what those groups are, and, people keep coming here acting like ULX is broken.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Bryantdl7 on October 29, 2014, 05:21:22 PM
I was careful with my inheritance for ranks, and I made an owner rank that is above superadmin. I have no issues with ULX.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Livaco on April 04, 2015, 03:39:04 AM
started server, didn't know anything, broke stuff with 3rd party stuff on TTT, deleted everything, started server again, broke even more stuff. story of my server lol:)
lol if u need a expert just hire one instead of breaking your serever
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Aharon Tager on June 23, 2015, 10:34:38 PM
Honestly, the way I do it on my server is to have a ranks ladder (user < member < regular < veteran < vip < vip+ < mod < head mod < admin < head admin) with all of those inheriting from the one under them and the default groups (operator = mod, admin = admin) sitting in their place. Then there are 2 groups, manager (myself) and owner (the 2 owners) who inherit from superadmin which can therefore remain untouched and still work fine for the code. i have yet to run into any issues with this configuration and if any of the ULX team members see a potential issue, please post and tell me what it is. This was the simplest way I could think of to have multiple groups with superadmin access yet different teams for displaying on the scoreboard and such.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Caustic Soda-Senpai on June 24, 2015, 02:11:01 PM
Honestly, the way I do it on my server is to have a ranks ladder (user < member < regular < veteran < vip < vip+ < mod < head mod < admin < head admin) with all of those inheriting from the one under them and the default groups (operator = mod, admin = admin) sitting in their place. Then there are 2 groups, manager (myself) and owner (the 2 owners) who inherit from superadmin which can therefore remain untouched and still work fine for the code. i have yet to run into any issues with this configuration and if any of the ULX team members see a potential issue, please post and tell me what it is. This was the simplest way I could think of to have multiple groups with superadmin access yet different teams for displaying on the scoreboard and such.

You seem to misunderstand.

GMOD expects superadmin to be root.

Which means GMOD ITSELF expects superadmin to be the highest group. Meaning that, given the proper circumstances, a player with superadmin access will have power over someone with "owner" status. Simply because that's how Garry made it.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on June 24, 2015, 03:15:20 PM
Honestly, the way I do it on my server is to have a ranks ladder (user < member < regular < veteran < vip < vip+ < mod < head mod < admin < head admin) with all of those inheriting from the one under them and the default groups (operator = mod, admin = admin) sitting in their place. Then there are 2 groups, manager (myself) and owner (the 2 owners) who inherit from superadmin which can therefore remain untouched and still work fine for the code. i have yet to run into any issues with this configuration and if any of the ULX team members see a potential issue, please post and tell me what it is. This was the simplest way I could think of to have multiple groups with superadmin access yet different teams for displaying on the scoreboard and such.

This may work in ULX, but only because we override some functions to trick gmod into thinking that those groups are superadmin.
All I was trying to say in the main post is that superadmin should always be the highest group. You can have it called owner, and you can have other groups inherit it, but it should always be the highest.

People run into targeting and permission issues all the time where groups 'above' superadmin don't behave properly.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: JamminR on June 24, 2015, 08:07:06 PM
all the time where groups 'above' superadmin don't behave properly.

Clarification :)
They are likely behaving exactly 100% the way Garry (and perhaps Valve/Source?) intended.
Just not behaving how some players might expect when they read some instruction that tells them to set an 'owner' or other group expecting it to be higher.
superadmin > admin > user
Anything else is just icing on the cake, and the cake is often known to Gmod as a lie.
:D
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Ryan Hemmet on August 06, 2015, 10:16:08 AM
On any server I have made or developed on I have followed this  ;D
On some servers I hop on, I inform them about this thread and give them a brief summary of why they should not have ranks above superadmin. I have got the owner of a few of them to change the ranks around.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Aaron113 on August 16, 2015, 10:41:03 PM
I have never actually posted in this topic, so I'm going to put my two cents in for anyone reading this.

I believe in adding what ever groups you want to Garry's Mod.  Garry's Mod is built to be modified.  You can build an entire game inside this game.  What's stopping you from adding an Owner group?  The answer is nothing.  Almost everything can be modified to your liking, including an Owner group that is fully functional.

If anyone ever wants a nudge in the right direction, feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on August 17, 2015, 01:56:39 AM
You are correct, but when most addons and mods EXPECT superadmin to be the highest rank in the game, you are only inviting trouble by creating groups above superadmin.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it shouldn't be done.

The proof of this is the countless threads we've gotten over the years wondering why certain permissions don't work since they've not set up groups properly or because a conflicting addon is checking for superadmin.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Conner Josh on March 31, 2016, 12:49:42 AM
Why not keep both
Reason it perfectly fine
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Bubbie on April 01, 2016, 04:06:53 AM
Why not keep both
Reason it perfectly fine
Because it doesn't make a difference. The owner's still going to try to put themself in an "owner" group, and still making a group higher than superadmin.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Undercover Orange on July 02, 2016, 12:08:30 AM
i have a group called owner only because i have tags that show up in chat saying what ulx group staff are in
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Buzzkill on July 03, 2016, 09:40:03 PM
i have a group called owner only because i have tags that show up in chat saying what ulx group staff are in


In that case I would edit the chat tagging system to expressly set 'Owner' for a particular Steam ID  (the number of such instances would be manageable, since it's unlikely you have more than a handful of owners).  Or, alternatively, simply map superadmin to a different tag, assuming that all superadmins are owners and no owners aren't superadmins.

Long story short, I would do whatever relatively light work it takes to eliminate the need for an "owner" group above superadmin, since that approach almost always leads to pain somewhere down the line.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Undercover Orange on July 05, 2016, 12:51:04 AM
im also a prop hunt server so i should be fine
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: Buzzkill on July 05, 2016, 10:35:33 PM
im also a prop hunt server so i should be fine


Not sure what that has to do with it.    If you're saying that you don't run that many addons (which might make use of IsSuperAdmin(), which will fail to work as expected under an Owner-Above-SA group scenario), then yes..  I suppose..    Still not the best approach though, IMHO.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: iViscosity on November 16, 2016, 08:58:11 AM
groups - This is a behind the scene, player tracking system for the purpose of assigning rights within the game and some addons/gamemodes.
A solution to this issue is to simple CALL the superadmin group 'Owner' if you wish.
I know this hasn't been posted on in a while, but reading through this just bothered me :P Not sure if there are any more, but I noticed this.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on November 16, 2016, 01:33:35 PM
Hah! Good catch!

I was probably pretty steamed while writing this, as if I recall correctly, we were going through a period where a LOT of people were having issues with some DarkRP incompatibilities with their groups and all of those issues were caused by them renaming superadmin to owner or having groups higher than owner.

Some of those issues have been address in DarkRP or patched (with bandaids) by us... but the message of this post is still valid. :)

Also... I had no intention of this post being stickied when I wrote it.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: BraveNM22 on December 13, 2017, 03:17:28 PM
I like server owner
I don't really have a defense as to why besides the fact I prefer it over "Superadmin."
However when it comes to ranks this is how my server goes (Jailbreak)
user
admin (not used because jailbreak is weird)
Trail Mod
Mod
Admin2 (used because jailbreak is weird)
Senior Admin
Mentor
Head of Mod
Head of Admin
Head of Staff
Ast. Manager
Manager (Kinda superadmin to some)
superadmin (Unused)
Co-Owner
Owner

Some other stuff is sprinkled in there because of stuff that I decided to do on my own and not something that took inspiration off of something (Community Staff) but yeah. Idk my opinion. obviously its up to the coders to do their thing and its up to the server owners to do their thing.
Title: Re: Groups vs. Teams - Why having an owner group is useless and stupid
Post by: MrPresident on December 13, 2017, 11:51:45 PM
You're missing the point of this post.

You can call the groups whatever you like. By default you can not visually see what UserGroup a player is in. It is up to an addon (like UTeam) or a gamemode to associate Teams with UserGroups.

It's fine if you want to create groups that inherit superadmin, but the point of this post was to inform that garrysmod will always see superadmin as the highest group and you may run into permission issues with other addons that weren't designed to work with how ULX handles groups. You may never have any issues, but you might.

For example.. I wanted my group that I am in on my server to be called "Developer" which is the highest rank in my community. My usergroup is still superadmin, but you don't see that anywhere because everything that displays "groups" associates superadmin with "Developer".

At least you choose not to use the superadmin group. That will certainly save you some potential headaches with hierarchy issues down the road.